After two week of teasing, the discussion you’ve been waiting for is FINALLY here. Brandon leads the discussion around the Amazon series, Wheel of Time. Collin binged all of it overnight (not a wise choice). We share what makes a good fantasy series and why adaptation from one medium to another is hard. tldr; It’s fine. Could be better. Could be worse.

Aaron is doing all the interviews
Coaching and teaching certifications
super much more better
Wheel of Time (TV show): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wheel_of_Time_(TV_series)
Why watch it?
- See how they handle fantasy movies
Everything too pristine
Like Lion Witch and the Wardrobe!!
Fantasy tropes… ugh
- Balance of good/evil
- Chosen one/dark lord
Run out of grounding!
Adaptations from one medium to another are hard
Preference for different medium?
Have clear rules for how this world functions
8 planned seasons: https://www.thewrap.com/the-wheel-of-time-eight-season-plan-showrunner-tv-series-adapted-books/
It’s fine. It could be better. Could be worse.

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A VERY ROUGH TRANSCRIPT OF THE EPISODE

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, book, fantasy, watching, episode, world, tropes, movie, wheel, costuming, character, weird, read, aaron, feel, fantasy tropes, called, bad, story, apparently

SPEAKERS

Collin, Aaron, Brandon

Collin 00:04

Welcome to Oh, brother, a podcast of three brothers trying to figure it all out with your hosts, Brandon, Colin, and Aaron. On this week's show, super much more better. Probably promptly 830 We jump onto record. Oh boy what's up? What's new?

Brandon 00:32

Oh, you know? A lot really? Some being offered summer will do that to you just like uh, well, I'm yep, that's what happened.

Collin 00:46

That was great that you have been in my notebook today is going to sit down and have to make an entry but this video

Brandon 00:59

again, being all fancy schmancy No, it's

Collin 01:04

been. There's a weird period in this transition period of moving away from my job job into whatever it is that I do now. Like, where I was spending a lot of time at my desk. Like, I was just constantly at my desk. And now I'm basically never here. And so every time I sit down, I'm like, when I was like, blowing the dust off of my notebook, like, like, yeah, like, I have no memory of this place like, right? This inherent writings and the weird language they don't understand. These are my notes from 3am Yesterday like I got it. So Coach funk has joined us welcome.

Brandon 01:46

Oh, boy, Aaron. Hello.

Aaron 01:51

Howdy, howdy, howdy. Sorry for my absence last night, I do apologize.

Brandon 01:58

Maybe it's just because I missed you. But your sound great today.

Collin 02:00

You too. You sound really present very like. Ciao.

Aaron 02:08

Yeah, I'm feeling way more bueno. than when I did the last few weeks. So I've I've been out interviewing with places for as far as coaching duties. I did a very nice private school Monday. I did a very nice public school today. And then I'm at a interview tomorrow morning. And then I interview move. Crap. was my last Monday morning. At another place so it's out. Hey, yeah,

Brandon 02:48

Aaron to is using his notebook to the fullest.

Aaron 02:50

Yeah, this this time last year, I you know, barely get a phone call from anybody. It's weird to think how how much a piece of paper does for you? As far as like teaching certification? Because

Brandon 03:05

we're right.

Aaron 03:07

This time last year, people were like, Oh, you think if I know? Well, and I'm like, dude, just so the fact that like I have all my ducks in a row. And like, the fact that I have, which kind of took me by surprise, because I wasn't necessarily expecting like, a lot of like big schools to call me because I was like, Oh, I'll stick with like the small school kind of thing. But no, I have like, in Oklahoma there is same thing with Missouri. They're writing for Mike. We're so big. In Oklahoma we have six A and six a two which is like a the jinx the unions, the places that look like colleges. And they go all the way Yeah, we all go all the way down to the like, add places like class. A, B and C and C being like Uber super tiny. So the fact that I have schools of the caliber of like, six a five day like reaching out to me like hey, like, what's your like? What's your resume? Got? You want to come in? Like, um, yes. Yes, please. And actually getting a chance to interview for like, head coaching jobs, which again, would have never transpired, you know, like this time last year, but people are like, Dude, you bring a lot to the table.

04:30

But like what you have to offer and like, oh, we'll just let's keep you in touch mode. Okay.

Aaron 04:36

It's way different that people are like, Oh, I'm actually wanted. Okay. So that's actually really nice. And so I have been extremely busy. I do apologize. I've literally been all over the place. I applied for a lot of these jobs. Saturday night, Sunday and like Sunday, like my phone was just blowing up and people reaching out to me and then last night we had Chili's brother my soon to be brother in law. Birthday and then we got home I was chillin like, Oh, we're gonna do this and then

05:17

I coach are you doing? Um

Aaron 05:21

It is eight o'clock at night. Nothing Coach, what are you doing? Oh man, I just got your stuff really wanted to see see what you're about and I'm like, Okay, hello. Not expecting that so then we just chatted forever so I always wanted to try to like good first impression.

Brandon 05:37

No, yeah, no, that's for sure. That's just crazy that they called you like that late like, Yo, what's up like?

Aaron 05:44

Like, in bed? What do you what do you what are you guys doing? And all your stuff and I just want to pick your brain for a little bit and I was like, ah, Branca okay? So that if you if you really want

Brandon 05:58

to pick my brain, you could listen to the oh brother podcast available on all podcast.

Collin 06:04

Employee employers.

Brandon 06:07

Just here like, I'll see your oldest brother just like complaining a lot like Yeah, he does that it's fine. Sorry

Collin 06:16

for Aaron and see if this podcast. I think you're safe. It's not on the first page.

Brandon 06:23

Although as we, as I learned, if you Google Funkhouser brothers podcast firsthand, just saying, Oh, no way. Yeah. So my kids accidentally found it. It's fine. Don't worry about it. Oh.

Aaron 06:38

Yeah, so I've added plus trying to still balance out my, my current employer. Yeah. I, I won't go into full details, but a little disgruntled of why I'm doing this. And I know, with coaching, you know, you always kind of have to, like, get your name out there. Because I was in I applied at a place and like, there's no way they're gonna call me. Okay, we know this guy that you worked with. And we called him and he really likes you. So we want to bring you in your eye. Oh, oh, well, shot the dark. Um, and so it's like, I mean, I was just applying just to have my name out there. And just to interview with places, and, like, a lot of these places, you know, go that far out. And, you know, as, as the situation with my school is currently going on, just like, I mean, I'm not really complaining right now, because I can actually, you know, go do something with this. And, you know, like said, the situation is just not really panning out the way that I want it the way that it was supposed to be. And I can now go to my school and like, hey, look, I actually have people who are truly interested in me, and they don't, you know, they actually see value in what I have to offer. So I'm, I'm sorry, or you know, you know, I've never been good. Like what haggled not haggling, but like,

Brandon 08:00

what's it called? Like negotiating,

Aaron 08:02

negotiating, but like, look, all these people think that I have had coaching opportunity or ability? Are you going to match it? Because I'm just too nice.

Brandon 08:11

And so I'm just like, yeah, no. Okay.

Aaron 08:14

So that's kind of where I'm, I'm currently standing in that situation, so that it's nice. It's kind of, you know, be able to talk to people who actually, you know, think I'm worth something.

Collin 08:26

Oh, you really liked me? Like, that's, that's truly

Aaron 08:32

incredible feeling to have, especially with, like, everything that I've had to go through to get to this point in time. But yeah, I'm just just literally all over the place. But all the places that I have also applied are either are way less than an hour. So also great. Yeah. So there is there is one place that is an hour ish. But it is a pretty decent head coaching position. And so I'm like, Edward, but so but everything else is like in the Tulsa area.

09:10

So I'm just like, all Let's go. Let's go Lascaux. And everyone's like, so

Aaron 09:15

you drive an hour and a bike? That is correct. Yeah. Like, do you like it? No, I do not. It is not very by No. So we get alleviate when you're driving an hour, that'd be super much more better than a lot of schools, right. We'll get you taken care of if we if we approve you like Thank you. So that's a that's another big bonus to have. So yeah, I've been I've been very busy this week, and I have to get up even earlier tomorrow to go speak to another school. So yeah, it's, it's, it's going. Hey,

Collin 09:51

well, sorry to hear how it goes. What is the what is the when you ask what's the timeline that they're looking to hire for these positions? Is it a couple of weeks out? Okay,

Aaron 10:01

so, um, a lot. So a lot of the bigger schools, a lot of the HR typically moves a little bit slower, then because I, with a smaller school with like this, the superintendent and the office person is literally like the, like main person who does everything. So, like that kind of timeline changes with one of the schools that I applied for. They're like, look, it's gonna take like, a few weeks to get everything and like push through because since it is a private school, everything does go to the church. And he's like, I'm not gonna lie, it might, it might be a little bit, but a lot of the places like the place I talked to today, they're like, Hey, we're gonna give you a call tomorrow. Or like, maybe the day maybe the day after, but you will hear from us in some way, shape or form. This week, on a on a on a decision, am I Oh, okay. Because today, I, I interviewed, and I guess I just did a very good job like impressing people because I was just there to talk to the football coach. And he's like, dude, like, this whole time, I've been hyping it up to, to our admin. And they're like, Yeah, we want me to like right now. So we gotta go to the other building. I'm like, Ah, okay. Cool. So we had to go over there. And I met with the super. And then he was like, Oh, by the way, our ad is here. And then there's like, oh, the the building principals here. And then this person wants to talk to you. And I was like, at one point in time, I was sitting in a room with six different like, administration people. And there's like, all like sitting around me. And they're like, Oh, okay. And yeah, it was it was pretty wild. Like I was, I've never been, I've interviewed for head coaching job that had like, 12 people on a, like a committee panel. And that was the job that like, when I first got into teaching I just applied for just see what happens. And they're like, Yeah, we have a head baseball job. At worst. It's a school. What am I? Oh, I thought you were the little or school. I, I'm just I'm a child. I've just got out of college. So what? Oops, that was a pretty interesting experience. But yes, I know, it's the place to talk today. I like to try to reach out tomorrow, or coming up or whatever. And then depends on some of the other schools. I know, the smaller schools, they're like, Yeah, we're probably gonna offer you the job like now. So I just, it's interesting to see, like, actually getting a chance to pick from places because I never had that option. I was always like, Hey, how about this job? And I'm like, Okay, I'll take it. Now. I actually have like, like, the ability to pick where I would like to go. For my future. It's like, oh, I never been in this situation before. Okay.

12:58

Underneath, so, yeah, that's that's what man, that's, that's what I have been dealing with all this past week. So nice, busy guy. Yeah, indeed.

13:16

Well, yeah, I'm excited to see what comes of that. Yeah, thank

13:20

you. Um,

Aaron 13:22

it's definitely because I thought I was always really good at at interviewing grant. Like, I've never truly, truly interviewed for like a head coaching job. But some of the questions that I've had to pick up and kind of learn, and just like, oh, I would never have thought to ask that. And then when I say things, or when I ask a question, or when people ask me a question, I give them a certain answer. They're like, Oh, we've never got that answer before. Oh, I'm killing it. Like, I'll say something like super nerdy. And I'm like, that's not what I meant. I'm sorry. Oh, we like it. Like, oh, thank you. So yeah, it's it is because, you know, typical interviews are like, oh, so tell me about your bubble, blah, blah, blah. And like, you give an answer. And it's like, oh, blah, blah, blah.

14:08

But they're like,

Aaron 14:11

and especially like the first, like the first few interviews I have, I guess, it's just like with a head coach. And so I dressed up, and then I show up and they're wearing like, gym shorts and a T shirt. And I was like, Oh, my What a little hand for this. And then we like we

Brandon 14:26

went over a dress, you know, it's fine.

Aaron 14:28

We spent a good like time, like talking about everything. But the reason were there. And then like, then we get into kind of the situation. And like when you give, you know, I'm always ready for like, oh, so what are you going to do to change a program? I got my answer ready, but they never asked it and I'm like, do you want to ask me how to change the program? They're like, No, I think we got a good feel for you.

14:53

I guess.

Aaron 14:55

Yeah, that's a I get all hyped for that. And they're like, Oh no, we Yeah, like you.

Brandon 15:00

I was like, Okay, so that's,

Aaron 15:03

that's another interesting thing that I get to get to deal with. So yeah, it's been a very interesting week for me so far.

Collin 15:18

Well, we have convened for the challenge. I don't know challenge. Preparing for angry letters for this episode. Yeah, our third week. So I think it's fine to just do air this all out there and have Brandon, kick us off with with the topic that you've been kind of keep in there.

Brandon 15:43

Yeah, so I have many thoughts. I'm gonna try to figure this out. But I watched the Wheel of Time on Amazon. Before we start airing. Have you do you familiar with this at all? Because I will state that before I watched it.

Aaron 15:59

I knew absolutely zero. About the Wheel of Time. I have never heard of it. All right. So what do you do? You said that in the text the other day, I was like, like, what kind of wheel Fortran game are we talking about? No, apparently that is not it.

Brandon 16:14

Yeah, I had no idea. Right? Apparently, it is a beloved fantasy book series be loved. Be like like, fervent angry.

Collin 16:30

No, don't wait. Don't Don't miss care.

Brandon 16:31

Some of them are angry. There we go. Thank you. All right. Saved it right. Not all. Not all. No, no, no, like, a very

16:44

hardcore

Brandon 16:45

fan base, apparently. Right. knit group of people. And it's a weird, it's weird, because I'm like, Aaron, I did not even really know that this book existed books. Probably a 14 books. What? Yeah.

Aaron 16:58

So what what has happened here?

Brandon 17:00

Yeah, exactly. I didn't know this either. Yeah. And so to discover that there was this, like, mega fan base for something that I didn't know existed. Well, number one. They're mad at me already. Because I didn't know about it. Good job, lamb. So I wanted to watch this. Mostly because I wanted to see what Amazon would do with a giant fantasy series. Because I do want to watch the Lord of the Rings one, right? Because I'm like, I'm like a basic nerd. I guess I'm not nerdy enough for the Wheel of Time. People like I'm not cool. Like, oh, you'll be like, Lord of the Rings. What a loser. Like, yeah. Just wanted to see what it would look like, and kind of what to expect. Right? And it's like, Fine, I guess. That's kind of what I got out of it. Right. So like, just within the first episode, I'm watching the show. There's eight episodes, by the way, they're about an hour

18:09

ish. Each.

Brandon 18:11

And I'm watching this, and my fantasy trope bingo card is just like filling up. Like, so fast. Right? Like it's got all the stuff that you're gonna want, right? Dark Lord. Boom. Got it. Chosen One. Boom. Got it. Like reluctant hero. Boom, they're nice,

18:35

right? times five, right?

Brandon 18:40

That's true. times five. Right? Weird. One of the weird fantasy ones that gets me a lot of times is like civilization that stays the same for 1000s of years. Right? Like literally, nothing happens. It's just like, culturally stagnant civilization. Right check. random friend drama. Check. That's kind of like a specific to Harry Potter thing. But like, double check, like, just like, all of a sudden, one guy being a jerk. Like, yep, checkmate, man. It's like yeah, so go ahead. Oh, no, Howard also watched this apparently surprising me Okay, so

Collin 19:29

here's what happened. Okay, so the last time we recorded who knows when that was we may never know. Yeah, no, we got done recording. I sat down and I went you know what, I need to finish this first episode. And then I finished the first episode and I went well, I've got a little bit more time I will go ahead and finish the second episode. And then I finished the second episode and I should probably just get one more because it's that good. Anyway, I ended up watching all eight within Not okay, it was an embarrassingly short amount of time. And then I went and I listened to found a couple of the recap podcasts that were coming out whenever this was released in the fall. And I listened to the first episode of three of these. And then I listened to the last episode where they kind of did a recap of the entire of their impressions over everything, to kind of get a sense of other people's perceptions of this. And I had actually, I actually have heard of wheel of time, it was always in the periphery of the, in the nerd genre of things that people were passionate about what was always, totally and utterly repulsed by the number of books, kind of like whenever I'm like, Oh, I'd like to get into anime. And then I'm like, Nope, I'm not watching 3000 episodes. One, one piece.

Aaron 20:55

Yeah, looking at you one piece. Because even even even the manga is like, Oh, this is book 50 out of 500. And in the first like, series, and you're like, I'm, yeah,

Collin 21:06

find the first 100 anymore or whatever. Yeah, exactly. Like, not even all available for you to do. That's the worst. So angry. So I have done a periphery. I heard people talk about it. And I knew Amazon was making this. Whenever they bought the rights to this material, it came across a bunch of the podcasts that I listened to, kind of the nerd culture world. And they were all really, really excited about it. But I didn't wasn't gonna watch it or anything. And so, yeah, I dove in, and I figured I need to just go ahead and consume all of it. And they did.

Brandon 21:47

Right. So did you consume all of it by because you found it interesting? Or just because you're like, well, I might as well so I can talk more about it. Yeah, so I,

Collin 21:57

I don't really know how you really want to want to steer this.

Brandon 22:01

Yeah, this is gonna be difficult when I'm going to talk about like, the show itself. First, just kind of like, general thoughts on the show general thoughts on the show,

Collin 22:09

I made it 15 minutes into this we discussed last time, and I stopped. There's so much exposition in this show, constantly, all the time, with things that I felt weren't necessary. The first 15 Maybe 20 minutes of the first episode is a slog to get through. And apparently, the prologue of the book is like extremely long and laborious to get through. And that wasn't even covered in these episodes. So I don't know. Okay, information when, but all that to say, I kept watching to see how it ended. I wanted to see what the resolution was obviously, knowing that there are going to be multiple, multiple seasons. Season two is season two is already in production. And so I knew that I wasn't going to get everything resolved, but I just wanted to see how it ended. And then I was like, by episode five, I was kind of hate watching it. And then the last episode just had me really frustrated. So I put a lot that far. And

Brandon 23:21

I kind of did that too, right? I would watch one and be like, like, I want to see what happens but like not right now. Like he looked at me and like that's like me to watch it later. And again, I think part of it's the pacing. It just feels wrong sometimes, because like so many episodes like you'll have the episode like nothing really gets resolved within an episode. No right or you have to like wait for like two episodes afterwards.

Collin 23:48

The first episode and even into the second episode aired there's some broader discussion here of just like pacing and stuff. So we're gonna talk about some specific things I think about the talk about this job saying, but why in the fantasy genre at large because yeah, but this one specifically, there were some major problems with pacing and, and continuity of concepts really took me out of this world constantly, constantly. And the first big one was the trollocs who were chasing them for no reason. And then they just became a non issue. Like,

Brandon 24:19

until they were back until apparently Aaron the trollocs Imagine Marukai but like not as cool

Collin 24:26

from doctor I felt like I was watching a Doctor Who episode with how bad the costuming was out.

Aaron 24:32

Okay, all right. So timeout real quick. Is this so when you say fancy are we talking like as extreme as like the Dark Crystal fantasy? Are we talking about like Lord of the Rings kind of fancy pants

Brandon 24:46

sort of what's the in The Lord of the Rings? genre of fantasy? Right? It's very high fantasy. There's magic. There's like mysticism right there's like monsters s because

Aaron 24:56

there's like moderately realistic or is it like kind of that like oh no What is a high yield?

Brandon 25:01

It's super high. Well, it's very high fantasy, right? It's very high fantasy. I would classify it as because there's like magic and demon monster things and like different like races ogres and stuff, right like, apparently there's different races of people, but they just sort of like mentioned them. They don't oh my gosh, how you think about it?

Collin 25:21

Oh, so frustrating how, how they spend just eons with exposition on some things, and they just throw an entire race of redheads that lives to the north. And they're just like, anyway, it's like, oh, my gosh, I just yeah, that, that, that that comes into that pacing. Were just like, in and out and we're moving and blah, blah. And you're like, why not spend more time on that one thing

Brandon 25:45

that we might get back to in a minute, that's gonna make people mad at me. It's like, instead of like, a very Western European based high fantasy, right? Like the Witcher

Aaron 25:56

right now, not to ask is like, we kind of talked what you're asked or what are we? It's

Brandon 26:00

kind of like that. Right? Except for there is a lot more like Eastern philosophy concepts in this. Yeah. Okay. Right. So like, they will be like the Wheel of Time. Right? as a whole is kind of like Hinduism. It's very right. Reincarnation, right? Yeah. Like, you're together. Yeah, your soul will cut your soul gets taken by the wheel, right? When you die. And then like you can be you can come back in a new life. Right, the wheel, they say like, the wheel spits you back out or whatever. Yeah. And so there's, it's cyclical, so they have stolen some like Buddhism, and Hindu concepts. Which is kind of where their mythology is based on that instead of like, a Western European vibe. Okay. It's very Eastern. Which is like, why? Some of the costuming bothers me because it's like, oh, yeah, here they dress like this, but this dude just got a katana for some reason. You're like, what? Like, I don't understand like, yeah, you know,

Collin 27:06

visually, this was hard to track because nothing felt very cohesive. As of yesterday. I just had a $90 million budget to put together.

Brandon 27:18

I don't know. I don't know where that some of that. But you know, when the mind didn't go, right. Here's the first major thing I'm gonna give out about. I'm thinking drove me crazy. The costuming is so annoying. That was the

Collin 27:31

first thing so bad. It's so bad. Everything just come across. We've talked about this in the context. I was I was I was thinking about this as I was watching about the world building and everything. And I just could never be convinced of this world based off of visually how it

Brandon 27:48

looked. Well. Number one is whatever like filter they slapped on at the end. Like it looks like everything looks like really pristine all the time. Not all the time. And that's what drove me crazy. Right? The costuming specifically. Because like everybody is always wearing clean clothes.

Aaron 28:09

Always. Where's the show called again? We'll have time.

Brandon 28:12

All right. I'm gonna go quick Google search. Yeah, there's some some screenshots of this thing. Right. Look at the costuming is a little confused, right? We're gonna be talking about the style and the influences that come from like literally everywhere in nowhere all at once. And they're like, exotic Oh, this is basically just India right? Like they they lean into that Eastern vibe. pretty hardcore. But the work just fine. I don't care, you know, whatever. But the thing that got me is everybody's clothes are always clean. No matter what. Right? There's one part where they are. They have specifically been traveling for one month it says on the subtitle one month later, I felt very SpongeBob asked why later, and, and the dude's clothes your main boy what brand or whatever. And his clothes are spotless. He's been on the road through like barren High Plains for like a month. And he's five perfect. His hair is perfect. He's not dirty at all. He's like green cloak is just like pristine.

Collin 29:20

Right? It's everything looked like it was here is the your here's your outfit. And after every day of shooting we're going to go and dry clean it and it will be brought back to you the next day. Well,

Brandon 29:35

what it reminded me of is like Errol Flynn movies are like those movies from like the 50s like Ivanhoe and whatever. Like 50s costuming movies where everything is just like perfectly clean all the time. So

Aaron 29:47

I'm definitely getting a Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe kind of vibe. Oh,

Brandon 29:52

that's a good all the earrings. Oh, it's

Aaron 29:54

so clean your sight? Yeah, but you just fought in the battle and you had like no blood on you think Exactly. So exactly. I looked at one screenshot and I was like, oh, okay, I see it now. Yeah, target.

Brandon 30:08

Apparently that's what the $90 million budget bothers me is because it looks like a cheap movie. It's like a cheap fantasy movies look like this.

Collin 30:16

Well, I think that's the part of the filter and the lighting. Right, like, okay, the lighting is not good. The lighting is is over. It's a lot of oversaturation. Yeah, it's oversaturated. That's, that's a good yeah, it's just feels weird. Feels like they didn't process this and Okay, so I will say in that, am I going to come to the offensive to something here, but they were interrupted by like a global pandemic up against Fair, fair, fair, we're especially the back half of the episodes were really, really rushed through production. But at the same time, the first ones weren't. And they kept the same look. And for as dark and broody, as some of the scenes were supposed to be like, they were still very like, Oh, this isn't a studio. I can tell. Like, it's because they didn't. And, and I think part of that too, for me with how things were staged, nothing felt big. Which is odd in this kind of epic, fantasy genre fantasy genre. Like, I'll just point to when they were in the White Tower, kind of later in the series, which later when they when they do arrive, spoiler alert, by the way they make it to the White Tower, man,

Brandon 31:29

no one saw that coming. No

Collin 31:31

Poo. It didn't feel big at all, every room felt small and disconnected and very modular. And you didn't get a sense of the grandeur of this city that was supposed to be like, apparently that city is supposed to be like, the cream of the crop, like super, super bad, like a big like, yeah, big and like the richest city ever, like a King's Landing type situation. But it just came across this step, everything's very white. Because you're in the White Tower isolation, you made it. To put this put the budget into perspective, just so that you are aware, the Lord of the Rings, the first movie of the lord of rings, Lord of the Rings at a $91 million budget for the first movie, which came out in 2001 which is $152 million in today's dollars to make one movie. And so the 90 million obviously stretched across eight episodes is you know, it doesn't go as far but ya know, I mean, that makes sense, right? Like it I'm like, like processing and stuff like you don't have anyway I was just very confused by this by how pristine everything always looked. Even when people were supposed to be like suffering or sick or you know, really going through stuff. It was still like Yeah, but you're wearing the dry clean clothes that they gave you from previous from yesterday right there was it was hard for me to get into that so yet the lighting and how things looked was very hard for me to get on board with from from the get go like everything was just too nice and new. Like everything looks Yeah,

Brandon 33:13

that's what I think that's what because it doesn't look lived in at all. It's just like

Collin 33:18

yeah, I will say there's a difference here between like, the we've had this discussion before between the difference between Star Trek and Star Wars buttons. Yeah, trek. The world is clean, right. Like, it is supposed to look kind of you know, detached and like, like a hospital ward and like, because that's kind of how the technology has made living. Right like Yeah, way humanity looks now versus this where it looks clean because they just didn't have the costuming or the costuming budget. Yeah. To to make it look dirty. And it was one of those things to think back to what five more million dollars? I don't know. I don't know how you price this stuff.

Brandon 34:01

Yeah, good. Cuz I got a release for like hero clothing, right? Like, you're you could have had alternate costumes, right? Like a dirty or set like, even like as in I know, like the way that you have to film something like this is like very out of sequence I would have imagined No, and so

Collin 34:18

they filmed it all in sequence to kill me. No, no, no, they filmed all of this in sequence, which leads to a discussion about one of the we'll get to that later. But yeah, they filmed this in sequence

34:30

freely. Yes.

Brandon 34:32

That doesn't feel right that because they should have some dirty clothing. Right. Like I ended it's hard. Right? Because like I don't know enough about the world to be like Oh, magic, right like maybe the magical I don't know. Like it's really weird, right? I don't understand.

Collin 34:51

Bahrain, the literally wears the same dress the entirety of the show, like it's yeah, a blue dress. The little show Good or bad? Every time. It's

Brandon 35:02

like, what's her traveling gear? That's right. Two things she wears. But again, for a person that is literally it's stated that she hasn't been to the tower in two years. Oh, 20

Collin 35:13

Oh, is it 20 While she's traveling? Oh, yeah. Going for 20

Brandon 35:18

This question he hasn't been back the last time for like, at least two years.

Collin 35:23

You're right. You're right. Yeah. And

Brandon 35:24

like it's probably the same player because he just left with right and doesn't look, she doesn't look like a road worn. Or she doesn't look like a traveler. Exactly. You I mean, yeah. Now, there are some places where it would make sense, right, and get back to things that are not explained at all. Like those white cloak people. The inquisitors or the quest Yeah, the basically the Spanish Inquisition. Right. Oh, my, that's the other thing. That's the other thing that this, like the laziness of some of the tropes in here, like, Yep, it's the Spanish Inquisition. They're just wearing white. We know. And we know nobody, everybody expected them. Nobody was like, they were like, bad guys, I guess. But I don't really know what their deal is, or why are liars.

Collin 36:14

Here's the thing. As much as I love that Amazon does this, when you pause it right, that gives you those little extra factoids. I became compulsive about touching my little, I watched it on my laptop, and then on my TV about touching either the trackpad or pressing the up arrow to see is there any more X ray information here? Yeah. Because then, immediately, when something new would pop on, I would go I do not trust the people who are writing this to tell to tell me what this about this. And I was right. 100% of the time. Yeah,

Brandon 36:51

there's a couple like, and I don't know if this is like, the television or the source material, but some of it is just like lazily, something else that you recognize, like the Spanish Inquisition people, or like the weird like the way of the leaf people, it's clearly just the Romani people of Europe. like boom, that's it. Like they're just they're just Romany. Like the the wagons. The way they kind of talk about themselves as being outcasts and stuff like not that part but like the part where they're like, oh, yeah, we haven't you heard we steal children and like blah, blah. You're like, it's the Romani people is is the realm many stereotypes come to life in this. Like, yeah, like, how did you just literally copy paste?

Collin 37:41

These additional, like, tropes and literally, like you said, stereotypes of some people? Yeah. I don't understand.

Brandon 37:52

Like, that's what it feels like. It's just like these stereotypes like, Aha, you know, this is blam. Throw it in there. Right. Like,

38:01

what, like, what do you do?

Collin 38:02

The questioners they are the they are, they believe the Ossett high to be witches, and they don't obviously they don't like them, but they believe that they are the true keepers of the light and protecting it. And it's the ASA die who are distorting it, or whatever.

Brandon 38:22

I got that on the third time I saw them whenever they're whenever that one weird dude is questioning the guy. The Yeah, creepy dude is questioning the people in the 10 parent and what's her face? Yep. The main girl? Yeah, like, so. What's her name? The main girl like, oh, actually our error

Aaron 38:43

error? Or? Hold on. casier

Collin 38:53

Oh, eggwin eggwin Oh, again. Yeah, like, Oh, it wasn't the way it was. It was.

Brandon 38:59

It was again, it was a Duane and Perrin. Yeah, right. II Gwaine also known as the actual best actress in the whole, she's very good. She's very good, right? You mean was not good. Don't say it's ran. Its ran. He's terrible. He's really bad. He's very broody and like, but not in a good way because like, parent the parent fellow. Also quite broody. But like, so him he is makes sense. Because you get just enough of his like little character arc.

Collin 39:29

That it make sense to you. Right? But Rand is just, he's a he's just, yeah,

Brandon 39:36

he's just an angsty 20 year old. Yeah. I mean, like, his angst. It stems from the fact like his like, weird relationship with the Gwaine like that. Drama is like, but like, he's way more like austere than necessary. And he's kind of he's very flat. And kind of not good. Like equations, good parents, good maths. Whatever. Oh, well, I actually think that Maureen is actually really good. I really like her.

Collin 40:07

She's fantastic.

Brandon 40:10

Her boy is like, what LAN or whatever. Like, he's fine. Like, he's supposed to be like, super easy and silent. So like, you know, that's that was established very clearly that's his character traits are like, Okay, well,

Collin 40:25

and they wrote different story arcs for the people. And what they were trying to do was basically every episode was trying to keep everybody moving at the same pace across the story arc

Brandon 40:36

is true, but man, the split the party story arc, the other trope that you fill in Split, the old split the party,

Collin 40:44

and honestly, here's how here's where having a shorter runtime would have been better, because then they could have spent an entire episode just focusing on the split party. And each one of them getting the mood up like, you know, like, well, like boss used to do like, those how many characters would be go through, and 7000 1000 each, you know, there would be arcs where they would go this episode is just to tell you only about this one character.

Brandon 41:10

Yeah, I feel like mine Gwaine and parent would have benefited from like a 40 minute episode of them.

Collin 41:17

I felt slighted by them because I don't know what her thing is. And parent. A wolf apparently were from like, yeah, I could even tell I could even tell during certain scenes where they were telling him, You need to kind of get a walk kind of loopy. And at first I was like, oh, that's because his, his leg is hurt. But then he kept doing it in some scenes. And I was like, oh, that's kind of they're trying to coach him and like, look like a wolf or walk like a wolf right now in the area. But it never nothing. Nothing paid off. Except the destruction of the questioners or whatever I assume.

Brandon 41:57

Yeah. Well, allegedly. Yeah. Wink Wink, wink wink, once a dying off camera, quote, air quotes, and that's

Collin 42:06

another somewhat another trope. And when someone says you'll never be bothered by these people again, it's like, oh, we're gonna be bothered by them a lot. Boilers.

Brandon 42:13

They're totally not dead.

Collin 42:17

So I was oh, and the other thing other tro other one, and I will. I think we need to get more broad here. But the thing that really ticked me off is when they tried to play cheap tricks, like we weren't actually watching this. The whole arc of Matt of like,

Brandon 42:33

it was so annoying. The irony thing like, Aaron, Aaron. Hey, guess what? He stole a dagger from an evil city. That was like cursed. And then he started acting weird. Oh, gee, I wonder what I wonder why he could be acting.

Collin 42:50

I understand. In the in the show. Notes. His buddy didn't know that. Yeah, but we did. So stop trying to play me. Like I don't know what's going on. Like, it's a dagger. Don't try. Yeah, it's a better stop.

Brandon 43:06

They were all very clearly warned. Do not touch anything. And so he put it in his pocket. And it's like, oh,

Collin 43:15

did he you know, dispatch the family? No. Is he is he channeling? No. Like,

Brandon 43:23

he's like, cursed. Because he had a cruise dagger.

Collin 43:26

Oh my gosh, that was so and you know, everyone was like, oh, Cody is you not and then real quick on Matt. He is not returning for season two. And so they found that out like on episode when they were filming episode like six or five?

Brandon 43:43

Was that when he just like disappeared kind of just disappears?

Collin 43:48

Because in the book apparently Matt does go with the whole group. He's not left behind. But they bring him with him because

Brandon 43:57

he's not coming back.

Collin 43:58

So they're trying to find their they are going to end up having to recast him recast we really also damages this final thing and I will say okay, I mean,

Brandon 44:09

it happens when you're doing a television show a long for me, it's just gonna happen right?

Collin 44:14

So real quick, I will give you the beat the the really short synopsis here I listened to the three podcasts the first episode of talking about the first episode of the TV show and then their last episode doing a recap. And every single one of their opinions changed the production of the show. Between the first one and the last one. They were like, super excited. It's gonna be great. Yeah, you know, there's these things, but it's gonna be awesome. And the last one they're like,

Brandon 44:38

oh my gosh, what did I just watch?

Collin 44:44

So didn't go over well with a large with with a chunk of the fan base, either. But anyway, that's those are all the problems, right of this kind of thing. But one

Brandon 44:54

of the main problems right, and so some of it is like Oh, also like spoilers, the very end, the very last part of the episode of Episode Eight, when they're at the Eye of the World, and they're like, oh my god, what is this mystical place? And like, I think this is the I pan to the floor and it's a ying yang. What kind of middle school edge Lord from 1994. Is that nonsense? Like What? What? Bro? It's the Yang like, yeah.

Collin 45:31

We were we had we had been teased this because we had like, the black thing or whatever, or and then there was like, yes. But now we finally see them both together and we're supposed to go. The balance right and the whole balance to the Force. Yeah. Yeah, I

Brandon 45:45

know. Right. Okay, now, we're gonna. Yes, that's a good segue to the next little section here. Okay. fantasy tropes in general. Right. And erinite We need your opinion on this now just a fantasy tropes in general kind of broad stroke brushes like that. I think I think as someone who likes fantasy, and I want to like more of it, but it's, it's like the laziest genre in the history of genres.

Collin 46:20

Man, you really are so good at making good all the Angular. I mean, like, look.

Brandon 46:27

I've read a lot of bad fantasy. Yeah. Right. And it's kind of like we talked about before, with, like, certain genre tropes. Like you, you just hit the tropes. And some people do it well, and some people do it badly. And like, you get somebody like, George railroad, Martin, Google, kind of subvert a lot of them. And sort of like, makes a character story that's in a fantasy setting, you know, and is not so reliant on the trip. They're in there. Right. But like, not as heavy handed. And I feel like I feel okay. One of the problems I have with this is that if the Wheel of Time was written in the first book came out in 1990. Right now, the fantasy tropes are pretty well established by 1990. Right? You know, you've kind of had the 80s Weird fantasy of like, Conan and all that stuff, right? Like, we didn't even in books, right? We have a pretty established fantasy, trophy thing, right? They're pretty well established, but it 80 by 2022. They're kind of played out in boring. So like, I don't, you know, do I want just the same old fantasy tropes delivered to me? Now, in 2022, right, this is where people are gonna hate me, because they read Wheel of Time in middle school, right? The formative years of teenage and young adulthood, and they love it. Right, and they don't want to hear anybody talk bad about it. But if all these tropes are in the book,

Collin 48:21

they just write just, they're just fantasy tropes. And you know, that's what this lacks me at least. Again, we haven't read the books for a bit only basing off of what we're, that's true. But I will say the writers and the showrunners of this actually came out in two I think in their in their their attempt to quell the fury of Wheel of Time. Not to not, what am I talking about here? zealots? Great word. In order to quell the fury of the wildtype zealot, they actually came out and they said we perceive our production of this TV series as another turn of the wheel right so it's an yet another twist on this other universe.

Brandon 49:08

So pretty smart. is saying I actually see

Collin 49:11

it we actually view this as this twist. And, and that's fine. Right? Okay, do with what you can because it's a different medium, you're different audience right? They're trying to make a more broad interest in applicants more people. But they relied so heavily on the tropes and lack of storytelling that it was as I did feel like this is just childish right now. And the number of times like when the trollocs are chasing them to the ferry it's like I saw this in Lord of the Rings right when they're going through the you know, city it was like this is you know, I just every single yeah, there's all this stuff as

Brandon 49:48

well. Now see, that's where people are gonna hate on us. We like like uppity Tolkien fans, right, blah, blah, right? You know what I mean? Like, how dare you? I We know that he created the genre. But there's other interpretations like, Yeah, I know. But like I'm saying,

Collin 50:06

unfortunately, you know, it's a copy, paste, show runners and writers of the Wheel of Time TV adaptation grew up in a world of the adaptations of these other literary pieces as they are influenced by it. It's not their fault, right? They can't help but be influenced by it. But it shows. And that's the part where you go, Okay, right. Like, I have seen all of this before. And nothing about this is very sure where there's some twist, you're like, Oh, great. Cool. But those, right, those are just story writing. That was story that wasn't trope usage in this and I did just, it was kind of predictable at times and bit a bit boring. Yeah.

Brandon 50:51

And thoughts on fantasy genre in general?

Aaron 50:54

Well, I can't really say too much because I'm literally playing Warhammer right now.

Brandon 50:58

That's fine. That's very like It's like

Aaron 51:02

even with like, even like with Warhammer like the fantasy verse and not the 40k Yeah, like there's still a lot of things like oh, look, there's There's doors though they call them doorway. I go there's, there's Orcs and Goblins. They call those green skins. And like, although the one thing cool is that like the Empire, which is like 100%, like Holy Roman Empire, it's like, oh, look at these knights. And then there's black powder. So there's like a lot of that kind of things that now you guys are nailing it on the head where there's it, there's not a lot of more room to kind of explore. As far as like this fantasy version. Like, I know, there's people that are like, try to put a new twist on it. Like there's that Netflix series called like the magicians. And it's like, oh, it's like, what of Harry Potter was like teenage version and like, oh, there's a little more grungy? And it's like, yeah, like, that's me. But like, I mean, come on. Um, and then there's, or was I going with us? Like, there's always there's always something. But yeah, it's kind of like, yeah, it's kind of played out. But then you get kind of more mix of things. It's like, oh, that's that it's fantasy with like, steampunk and you're like, wow, look at all the crazy stuff. And so it's like, there's, there's always going to be something that it's always going to try to be, like, polished or sold like, Oh, look at this new fancy things. And of course, there's gonna be people like God has elves and Mirage foaming at the mouth. But like, there's only so much that people can do with that unless you take a complete overhaul of like, what you're watching and the last person to kind of really do that. Just thinking off the top of my head. I mean, are, you know, are the big players, you know, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, kind of like all that stuff. The one thing that I say that will kind of make like, a little bit of fantasy. A little bit interesting is when it's like, mixed in with like, oh, maybe this like was kind of cool. And that's kind of like, the only thing that pops in my head is like Pirates of the Caribbean. Right? That's all Yeah. And it's like, whoa, that's like, you know, it brings kind of that fantasy stuff. I like to live like, well, that's Davy Jones and like, oh, that's like, all this kind of stuff. So it like brings like a different kind of twist to it. But like, it's something that we're more familiar with. And so something like we're like more comfortable with. That makes sense.

Brandon 53:32

And I think that's what, that's what makes it that's what makes the fantasy genre so difficult is because like, you know, on the one hand, it is very fantastical, and there's like so much like, unfamiliarity with the world, potentially. And like, that's why you do get like, Oh, this is kind of like the Roman Empire. Right? Because yes, if you have to have grounding points, right. I'm not saying like wholesale rip off the Romany people just drop them into your fantasy world. But like it's tricky. Because if you go too far, it's very unrelatable. Yeah, right. And you will have no grounding and you will hear people consuming it will be like, I don't know what's happening. Right? Which is why I think that my favorite fantasy stories because I used to read a lot of it or used to be into it, right? Like real big. But like it still has to be like really character driven. Right. Your characters need to have like very clear motivations and goals and purpose and like whatever and you could do the whole like, Chosen One, whatever. But like you still have to make the character interesting,

Collin 54:50

the entire episode dedicated to the death of two characters that we just met and I have no reason to care for or why this is a big deal. Oh yeah. Like, this isn't like it's, it's trying to make it character driven, but there's no reason behind it right? Like, there's no suspension not being grounded to that. And these these fantasy is is hard because there's a lot of lingo there's a lot of terms that you have to get people queued in on, which is why I immediately had to turn on subtitles, not because it's in a different language, but because I had to follow along. And it's hard when, when everybody's dark beauty and they're talking quarter and it's like this.

Brandon 55:31

They're saying words like, Amylin seats and you're like, What? What does that mean? Just get I just dropped. I said, I odd you out of context. And like, I don't, again, I understand, like, in the first episode, like, the characters don't know, either. So I can kind of give them a little pass on that stuff at the beginning, because like, they also don't know, so you're kind of learning. Whereas, like, it's a word they've heard, but they don't really know what it means. So like, okay, or they have their own preconceived notions, like, what the wisdom girl, right? So like, sometimes, it's okay, sometimes I can give it a pass on that when I'm a little bit, not all the time sometimes.

Collin 56:20

So, there is this process of we're having to learn the world, right? And we're gonna fast track this, there's gonna be a lot of exposition and voiceovers and dialogue and kind of like the, as you know, Bob's, which came up several times in this episode, where it was like, Oh, yes, for some of the last episodes, like the only reason LAN is here is so that she has a reason to tell him this idea, right?

Brandon 56:41

Yeah. Okay. Like, okay. Yes. And I think that, that brings me to my next kind of broad topic, right, if we're moving up this umbrella is adaptations from one media to another. Right? If you're thinking about overall in general, right, because you just said it right there. If this was the book, Maureen could have this whole exposition internally. Right. But because it's not a book, we have to give her a vehicle to express these thoughts and feelings. Right, we have to do that. And that's one thing that people were so mad about, on, I just read in the Amazon reviews, and there was one that really stood out to me, it was like, step one, read book. Step two, Make Movie exactly like book. Step three, make money. That's what it says. Right? And this is a very ignorant take on how the medios mediums work. Yeah, right, they function differently. So I just kind of want your thoughts on book versus movie. Are you a person that gets like really upset? I'm like, do you care? Like, what are your thoughts on that, in general, and then we can talk about like, like, why they're different. And you have to do it differently?

Collin 58:10

Yeah, I'll go here. I, my first exposure to this just at a personal level was with Harry Potter, right and going, I read all the books was voracious with them. And then I watched all the movies like came out. And I very, I was very quickly able to set aside and go, this is Movie, this is book and I understood that there are limitations there. And I know that's the second half of this question, but I am not bothered when a movie or a TV show differs from a book or a manga differs from the anime, or whatever that translation looks like. Because of limitations unless it's the Hobbit The Hobbit and so he didn't have to write you didn't have any way back on track. Why the war you didn't anyway? Hold on, let me know but it's, it's, I think I don't have an issue with with them I can I can enjoy one adaptation over, you know, one medium versus another medium, because of the qualities that each of them bring to the story that I'm getting out of

Brandon 59:21

them. Right, Aaron? What do you think? Colin made me read

Aaron 59:27

the first two books of the Harry Potter when the movies came out because he's like, I'm not explaining anything to you. And I'm like, but I don't I don't know what's happening.

59:36

Aaron 59:40

I was trying to think of an example because like, there's there hasn't been like a movie. The only thing that's really like true like really got my goat, so to speak is like the Game of Thrones. Like, which is like season one and season two, because that's that goes into a whole nother things like should this be a movie or should this be like a TV show? Like front, like from the book because and that's kind of what George RR Martin wanted when he's like, look, I want this thing on TV, like I want this to, like be a thing, but it's not going to be like a single movie isn't it's not gonna make sense. And when, when, like, season one and two and book, one and two, like we're very like on par with each other. And then all of a sudden it just goes split and there's like, Huh, okay, I have a kind of a problem with that. But it also made it a little bit interesting, because it's like, are they going to cut like, converge back? Like, what are they doing? So I even like when I watched the Harry Potter, like, when I read Harry Potter, like the other ones, because I fell in love with them. Yes, thank you, Colin. And then like, watch the movies. Like, I wasn't really like disconnected. Because I was like, this is still like, really cool to see like, what I fell in love with, like, on the screen. But then I know, like, there's a lot of those adaptations, like, what does that like Aragorn or whatever. The thing and then it's like, and it was like a box office bomb, because everyone like hated it. And so like watching things like that, where it's like, I wonder if like, people are gonna, like, try to jump on that series again, later on when like, you know, CGI is better. And like, all this kind of like, what have more of a budget. So I I'm trying to think of a time where it's like, I read the book, and I was just so infuriated with like, what had transpired of like, on the thing and I I can't think of one time I'm looking at my bookshelf. And I'm like, Is there is there anything over there that just like, I read and I was like that's kind of what made Game of Thrones, interesting, because it's like, oh, this is different. But it's still infuriating. And so I'm just waiting for him to finish.

Brandon 1:01:52

Well, yeah, he's got two more. Oh, yeah, that's the other problem with the show is right. They were building towards an ending that hadn't been written yet. And so they had to make their own end. Yeah. Because Martin hasn't got his done, you know, whatever. Like. So yeah, that's, that's one of the reasons why cuz they started having to build towards something different. They had to write their own version of the end, right. Which again, made people mad because they were like, well, it's different than the book. Right. And I think that is something that like, I I don't really understand either, right. I don't understand why you. Like, again, this part of the reason is something we've talked about before is like, it goes back to like identity, right? Like, like I said, earlier, you read this book when you were 14, right? It's an integral part of your life. Right? Your identity is you are a Wheel of Time fan. So now, when you watch something that is not exactly like, the fond butterfly memories that you have of this book, like it, it makes you upset. You know what I mean? But like, you can't, there's a myriad of reasons why a television series and the book cannot be the same. Right? Like, just the boy, the boy and the obvious one is internal character dialogue.

1:03:13

Oh my god, right? You can't,

Brandon 1:03:15

you can't do that. Right? You can't. But you can do other things, right? You have to convey these differently. You have to change things because just doesn't work on screen the same way it does on the page. And vice versa, right? You can have like really epic, like movie cinematic shots, but it's really hard to like, get that across in a book sometimes. You know, and they'll do things do you need to be divorced? Right, and if they're similar, right. Like, I think that's enough. You know, I could you know, I can see where you might be a little upset about like, Okay, well, they're the costuming is weird, right? The lighting is weird, I guess. But then the judging the movie slash show. And not the connectedness of the book. Right. Until to get there's a lot of other like really nuanced reasons people are upset that I don't understand because I didn't read the book. They're like, this character is totally different. Like, I don't know what that means. I don't how like they're just like shouty and I don't know why, like they there's a lot of talk we're not going to touch this probably but like there's a lot of talk about like, oh, the cat like why is you know, like they don't match right? Like the cast is too diverse. Like okay, that's a weird take but alright, whatever like it doesn't it's a fantasy worlds it doesn't matter like

Collin 1:04:42

which was I will say that was a departure. It was very interesting, right? Again, thinking back to the more traditional tropes of like the races of the of of people and creatures and have, you know, have held all elves look the same people all people basically look the same. All wars look the same. Very much not the case here, right of like, yeah. Which which made it which again, which I could see from somebody going well, they're supposed to be all from the same mountain village. Why do they all look different? Right. Okay.

Brandon 1:05:12

Now like that is that is fair? Like, if you're taking like a 100% like anthropological standpoint? Right? Yeah. Like actually, that makes sense, I guess. But like, it's established that this mountain town like these, many of the people, our main characters are not from there originally anyway. Right. So like, it would stand to reason that there are other people that are not from there. And it's not like they are at least established in this university. It's not established that they're, like, super weird for being there. Right. It's not established, like they feel like outsiders. Exactly. It's just sort of like, it is what it is. Yeah. So it's not, it's not expected in universe for it to be like a homogenous community. So like, Yes, I guess if you're thinking about like, isolated Amazon villages, right? Like, yes, everybody is going to be of the same ethnicity, but like,

Collin 1:06:14

but hate, but you're ready, you're ready for this right for this? Fantasy?

Brandon 1:06:19

Yeah, like number one, fantasy. Number two is 2022. And there are very few places that function under these rules anymore. You know what I mean? So like, I don't care if other people have very strong feelings about this, and I'm not gonna, you know, whatever. But like, Yeah, but that was another thing people were mad about like this, this character doesn't match the character in the book, like, Okay, well, from a television standpoint, like, if you're thinking about like, Gwaine, right? Like, she's actually pretty good actress. So like, can we keep her please? Because she's, like, really holding this thing down? Like, we need to Naga or we need to keep her around. You don't mean?

Collin 1:07:03

going, okay? Like, what's the point of this like we want, we want good actors who get the material, who fit basic, you know, criteria, and then just go from there. Right? And if they're good, they're good. And that's all we need to be focusing on here. But yeah, for people to come out and be like, Man, the fictional character that doesn't look like other fictional character, like, ah,

Brandon 1:07:25

yeah, that's a little bit weird, right? If you want to talk about how Rand is kind of a flat actor, and you don't feel like his character is being portrayed correctly. Okay, I might be able to give you that one. But yeah, he doesn't look like the RAND in my head, like, sorry, it's never going to. So

Collin 1:07:50

that was one one danger of, of crossmedia. productions like this of you do lose some of that internal dialogue of how people's voices sound, or how people's think sound. But, again, you have to set that you made that up yourself. Right? Like, you can't expect you can't bring those expectations into this. And so that's one of these things of going, okay. And I know, like, Roger Ebert used to talk about this, I think, where he would go like, what is this movie trying to be? Right? Like, I need to view this by itself. And go, is this successful in what attempting to be and to do? I would argue that this is not successful. But I would also argue,

Brandon 1:08:36

it's like halfway there app, right? Like,

Collin 1:08:40

like it yeah, and it's all time. So angry, so angry. But going like, it succeeds in some things, and obviously, in not others, but it's trying to find his identity in, in through these characters in this story, and it just for some reason, whether that was COVID, whether that was you know, budgetary constraints, whether that was misguided, show runners or whatever, like, not putting it on any one individual here, because this is kind of a collective effort. Oh, yeah, it's Yeah, definitely. But recognizing, like, there is like, what it's trying to do with characters like it's, it's kind of there, right? For what it's, it's setting out to do the feeding into all the tropes feeding into all the expectations and whatever. And not If not, they explicitly said, we are not sticking to just the book for our material. We're bringing in other stuff. So okay, like, mission accomplished. So existing on it by itself, isolated from everything else.

Brandon 1:09:47

It's, it's not terrible. No, it's not exactly. It's not like it's trying to like accomplish something very small in scope either. Right? Exactly. Like we're trying to Cover a gigantic thing, and it will take time. And I imagine like, you know, things might change as you go forward. Right? They might change a little bit of stuff here and there. So like, you know, who knows, like, what it'll be? And again, it if it can tell an interesting story by itself, right, like, there you go if in I don't know what I said this about before, but like, I know I have said before, like, Oh, no. More people are gonna get to see the thing that I like. Yeah. Ah, right.

Collin 1:10:39

Yeah, but it's not the thing that I like it. Yeah. But like, there's more of it.

Brandon 1:10:45

Like you get to see and have the thing. Yeah, I think it was Star Wars when talking about this like, is the thing that you like, is now reaching a wider audience? Who might also then like the same thing that you like? You know, it's not bad. Right? It's not so bad. Like, all right. So, I mean, it was good enough that I'll probably watch season two, right? Just because like, I want to know, something's right, like, interested slyly in. It's like, just interesting enough. That I'll probably watch it again later. I don't know when I'll get around to it. Right. I'll probably forget that it comes out again, right. I'll miss it. And be late, like I am this time. But like

Collin 1:11:39

yeah, there are arcs that I want to know. But obviously parent is a big one for me, like I'm going, what's the payoff for this? Like, is he going to become Lord of the wolves? Like what is going on here? Like, I'm so confused by this, and it doesn't help that the that moraine. Apparently, again, this is one of those things where you don't know about the different colors of the of the different women in their little sex that they Oh, yeah, red, the yellow, green and the white, the blue, like, it doesn't help that moraine who is guiding the story is also apparently from the more the group who are like secret keepers. Yeah, she is the one to be giving us a lot of exposition or explanation is infuriating, because I'm like, You're the one person who knows. But every time someone says something, and they ask you a question, you're just like, Well, anyway, drink this. And we need to keep moving. Rest

Brandon 1:12:34

up. Yeah, like really intentionally vague.

Collin 1:12:37

You're just like, Oh, that was another thing.

Brandon 1:12:42

But again, that kind of makes sense, too. Because like, she's telling your main characters that. And so like, they also don't know, right? It's not like you're the you the audience are the only person left in the dark, right? Like, the other main characters are kind of too. So like, you have to make assumptions along with them. So that kind of pulls you in a little bit

Collin 1:13:03

true. It's just hard to do, again, with the specific medium that we're dealing with here. Oh, yeah. And the fan and the tropes that we're working around, right. It's hard to, to stick with this a lot when you just when you keep getting big or non answers at all. And it's again, it's, it's hard to find yourself being grounded in this where it's like, well, I could really use an explanation for this right now. Again, this is one of the things of like, I wouldn't have asked had the character not asked, but since you asked, yeah, I'd kind of like to know,

Brandon 1:13:35

yeah, can you give me something that goes to keeping you invested in the long term? Right, like, you gotta give me something something? Yeah. Right. Like there are a lot of shows that have been on television right where they're like, I'm thinking specifically of like, there was a show called Hell on Wheels. Right? And it was about like the old west like building the Transcontinental Railroad you know? And so it's like in the middle of like the West and all this and like, like you know, that show like, it was really good and it was really well written and there was lots of really interesting characters but like nothing good ever happened. Yeah, and so like, oh, you the audience is like why should I keep what there's no payoff for anything right like nothing there's no like reward there's no like story I can be a small story arc, right? Give me some kind of pay off. No, I need to pay off somewhere.

Collin 1:14:33

I was to that point, whatever they met the way of the leaf people whatever their name bore, were, I was just like, these people backstab them. I'm turning this off and never watching this again. Because to that point, every new people we had been introduced to like Dana or whoever she was in that little town like an F bar to the lady. Yeah, every people new person we had been introduced to was like, these people are dangerous, and they will backstab you and every new people. Oh, the questioners and And then Dana and then some other people in there like, the red eye to see like, whatever I think, Yeah, cuz people you're just like,

Brandon 1:15:06

oh my gosh, nobody is good in this and there's there's not it's not just that there's no payoff. It's like, there's no positive thing that's happening here. And I was I was seriously going the moment this goes south, I'm turning this off. I'm not watching this again. And it didn't it was nice, but I did have that moment of like, Don't do this to me. Yeah, it puts you in this like mental state of like, I don't want to watch this because like nothing good is happening. Right? Like there's no wins for your team. You're supposed to be rooting for these people. And they're constantly like losing. Right? Like you don't want like you have no, you have no reason to watch. Right? Like there's there's a very simple formula here. Like, and I don't care what it is. This formula works, right? Bad guy does bad thing. Okay, eventually, bad guy gets his comeuppance for doing bad thing. Boom. That's it. Right? You can work that in small, small scale, large scale, whatever you want. If your story is about, like heroes and like overcoming obstacles, like you have to have that in there somewhere. You can't just leave it out. You can't just be like bad guy does bad thing. Bad guy does Another bad thing, right? Like you're you're making more like lose faith in the hero and like not want to root for them and not want to watch them anymore because all they're doing is struggling all the time. It's not very

Collin 1:16:44

interesting. All Rand is doing is complaining and brooding and causing fights with people are no please don't.

Brandon 1:16:49

Stop it rant. Yeah, like, all that stuff. Right? Like, it's just like, why? What's the point? Why are we doing this?

Collin 1:17:02

Which again, is is going this gets back to the storytelling. I think fundamentally, for me, it's what didn't work for me in this fantasy world was really like the staging and the lighting, my biggest complaint of and then the story writing was just, and character development was not there for me to make this smash out of the park. Like, really, really investable in a character. I finished the episode, I finished the entire I watched eight hours of this. And I ended going, you know, I actually don't care about any of the characters. And I thought that was a big waste

Brandon 1:17:38

for me. Yeah, it's a weird note to end on. And I think some things that I think some of the major reasons for that, again, are like, You need to have story arc payoffs within the episode. Right? You need to have something in instead of thinking about, like, instead of thinking about this as an eight hour movie that you've chopped up into eight pieces, right? You really need to do think about it as a episodic events, where it's like, there's some sort of build in each little episode, okay, something that makes it something that's paid off or something that's happening, something that like, makes you want to keep watching it not ending on a cliffhanger that's cheap and lazy. Right, like, moving the story, you know?

Collin 1:18:33

Which is, which is hard. Alright, that's not hard. It's, it's, it's what were the expectations for this. And you can very easily to see they want if they could have, they would have shot an eight hour movie, right is what this is, what is the way this is paced is an eight hour movie that's released in one hour chunks, and it just doesn't work? It doesn't

Brandon 1:18:55

know it doesn't work at all, because then you still you're still missing beats. Right? You're still missing your little diagram thing. Right? Like, because this is only Season One of question mark. If you do it that way, you're only getting like, the first act in eight hours. is not very helpful. Right. Like I know, I basically just did like one season of exposition. Like that's, you know, like it's not great tempo

Collin 1:19:35

so, Aaron, when you wanted to get your thoughts real quick on when you're watching fantasies and stuff, like what what helps draw you in? It? Uh, we've talked about what puts put us out of this particular TV show, but when you're like what helps draw you into fantasy

Aaron 1:20:00

I think a lot of it does go back to that kind of relatability with a lot of it of just kind of like, oh, like, I can understand that, because like I was referring to this, you know, the one thing that I really like with Warhammer, like, fantasy or otherwise, it's like, oh, you know, it's not just about like, this certain amount of thing it like, there's more to it is it like, and what I'm trying to say is like the world building of it. Like, if I can submerge myself and have to, like do research like on the world to get a better understanding. Like, I think that's kind of cool. Because a lot of people are like, Oh, here's a, here's a, here's a place, and there's a thing and just like, well, like, I got to understand like the world. And that's kind of why it was so fascinating to although I barely read Lord of the Rings, the fact that there was like so much in depth to it. And you know, the best example, that like kind of like a double edged sword is things like Dune, where like, yes, you can read the book. And you can watch the movie, but there's like a whole other world, like outside of it that like you need to understand or you're not going to, like, you have a clue what's going on. And so like the fact that like that, what draws me in? Is that like, if there's like a whole world, and it's not just like a no, you know, here's a, here's a mountain and there's people that live in the mountain and like their cave mountain people, and you're oh, what so what's about them, and you're like, oh, there's, they live in a mountain. And it's not doesn't like, truly, like, give heart to like the rest of the world. And it just like only focuses like, on the people and like, here's the

Brandon 1:21:41

people you need care about. Okay, like, what am I supposed

Aaron 1:21:45

to do with that? And so what what truly draws me in into the world, and especially with with Warhammer is that there's just so much to it. And like, I mean, you, you could research for hours, and still not even like scratch the surface. And so if someone like has put the time and like created like a really good, like, backstory to everything. That's when I'm like, oh, okay, I guess I can kind of get behind us a little bit more. So that's what that's one of the things that draws me into it. Is that that has to have like, more things to have besides like, Oh, here's a planet and you know, elves on it. Alright, sweet story, bro. Like, what am I supposed to do with that? So that's how I feel on it. Like, there's got to be more to it.

Brandon 1:22:34

I think that's a good point. Like, there has to be rules. Yeah. Right. Like, have clear rules about how this world functions. Like, I don't care like what you have in there. Like, you can have magic, you can have all this stuff, but how does it work? And then make it work that way?

Collin 1:22:51

All the time? Well, this did a really bad job with that several cases where like, like, look at the ID. The one rule about the blight is that you don't touch it and you don't linger. And then cut to next scene. Okay, we're just gonna lay down take a nap in the middle of a blight. Go ahead and lay down on the ground. That's fine. We're good here. You're like, what? The one you just broke. Your one

Brandon 1:23:14

machine did say like, we can only stay here for like 20 minutes. By like,

Collin 1:23:21

we're getting the hand wavy stuff. So it's like cuz she was like, Don't touch anything. Bah. And then she was like, but anyway, you can lay down over here and breathe deeply and get a good night's rest.

Brandon 1:23:32

You're like, Oh my God. Yeah, you know? Yeah, that's

Collin 1:23:35

true. My 101 lesson of the Wheel of Time. Season One, you need rest. drew the number of times that was spoken. Or like used as a deflection to go do something else. That's like, you look tired. Come lay down stop it. Just stop. She needs rest. You need rest we need rest restful you can restaurant you can get it. Okay, so

Aaron 1:24:05

I think another another kind of look at this as kind of the I always revert somehow back to the Dark Crystal. Because there's the you know, the Jim Henson move as one does. Yeah. And but it wasn't like last year, they came out with like a new, like a Netflix series. Right? Like, because when I when I watched it, the first time was like, the big crab thing. Oh, that's crazy. But then like when I watched the series, I'm like, Ah, like it, they kind of took a step back and like, Okay, we need to explain this, like, way better. So let's just do like a whole new thing on it. And so when I watched it, like I kind of submerge myself into it and more like, oh, okay, it's not just a bunch of weird children dressed up as elves and having there's a rock. It was like a whole like, different kind of universe because it built it up more. And so when I watched that and understood that I was kind of more involved in like, Oh, this is why, you know, our mom liked reading this, or this is why we named our dog after this kind of stuff. Yeah, when I watched it, I was the first time I was super little, and terrified. But now as I'm older, I'm like, Oh, this makes more sense now,

Brandon 1:25:17

but still terrifying. I think that's, I think that is kind of why the, like, chosen reluctant hero is such a thing in fantasy genres is because like, the plot has to explain the rules to them. And the world building to them. And so, vicariously you get it as well. Right? Like, it's, it's why it's such a thing. Is that always right? Because like it, you know, it doesn't always work that way. Like, one of the things that I liked to read when I was in middle school was those like Dragon Lance books. And those are really weird, because like, they're kind of like the old Star Wars books to write like, they were all set in the same universe. But like, dozens of different people wrote stories that took place in the same

Collin 1:26:24

universe. Yeah, that contributed to the overall.

Brandon 1:26:27

So like that. Yeah. Like world building by committee, which is a plan to write like, but you, like nest didn't necessarily even have to know everything about the world. But you could just get little chunks just because it was taking place in the world. And it didn't really matter if you do about like, the cataclysm, or like, the three moons or whatever, like, they didn't really matter in every story, but some stories they did. And so they would just kind of like, give you enough information. And then like, just go on about their business, like. So I think that's another thing like when, because like you said, in this this series, like the first couple episodes or so exposition, just like, don't be that. It's hard to not do that, when you're like, jumping into a place that is as dense as this universe is. I mean, it's got 14 books about it for crying out loud. That's a dense world. So there are lots of rules and weirdness that like, have to be explained. Well, like it spread out a little bit, maybe like, I don't know, right? Like only when it's like, necessary. It's hard. That's a hard pacing thing. Like, do I do it all now? Will the audience even remember it later? Like, do I? And again, that's a hard thing about a movie. Right? Because in a book, you can just like throw it in as like, narration or whatever, you know. But in a movie, you can't do that unless you have a narrator. And that's always like Mega cheesy. So why always, always? Ever the Grinch? Obviously, that's acceptable.

Collin 1:28:33

Does that do we hit? Do we hit everything that you were wanting to?

Brandon 1:28:35

I think so. I think that's the majority of it.

Collin 1:28:38

I think Yeah. In any closing remarks. Um,

Brandon 1:28:46

I mean, not really, I think I'm kind of done right. Like, in overall, it's like, like you said before, it's like, not bad. But it's like, not great, either. So I feel like, just, you know, it's just like, fine. You know, it's like, okay. And I know, that's probably what upsets people too, is like, they love this thing that just turned out like, okay. But it is a hard undertaking to do, right. It's like not definitely not a small task to undertake this, like gargantuan universe and trying to tell the story that takes place within it. So you know, it's gonna have growing pains obviously, like already, if Matt's not coming back, I'm assuming that Matt is very integral to the story, because there are five major players in this story. And he's one of them. Well, he's not around like,

Collin 1:29:39

that was the thing. Like they kind of have to have a mat because they spent this entire series going. It's not just one it's all five. Yeah, five, all five now are important, I guess. I guess I could just be like, well, anyway. Ah,

Brandon 1:29:55

yeah, he died. So Oh, darn. Yeah. I mean, recasting is ever he's been gone for like two, three episodes, and they recast it is whatever, like that's, you know, that's just something that has happened sometimes. So that'd be alright. But like, again, they had to deviate away from the book to accommodate this like real life thing. Yeah. So like, like, you know,

Collin 1:30:21

these are the these are the constraints that you do when you're working with other stuff with people and with the timelines, budgets that they have. And that's just, that's just part of it. Right. And, and people don't love it. People unfortunately don't see that they don't understand those constraints. Which gets back to the whole medium question. So yeah, I totally, I'm looking at it. I'm interested to see what they correct what they don't correct for season two, because it is already under production, and renewed. So I am quite curious to see what changed about.

Brandon 1:30:55

Do you know how many seasons are supposed to be?

Collin 1:30:59

No, I mean, how many? Is the googling podcast?

Brandon 1:31:13

I don't know if they've said, if they said like, how many there? How many they're writing for? Yeah. Oh, eight, eight seasons. Okay, there you go. Okay. So yeah, so they have some sort of plan. Right. So at least hopefully, they can figure out how to

Collin 1:31:41

Well, yeah, and this is the other thing is that apparently, they are jumping around quite a bit with the books. So spoilers. The first episode of season two is titled, A Taste of solitude, which is a title from the sixth

Brandon 1:31:58

book in the series. Yeah, I don't know about how the books are paced and how it works. So yeah.

Collin 1:32:05

And like where this ties in? Or what stories are tying in or, you know, what happens? It's just, again, or what, how they're going to sequence these kinds of things. And so you just oh, well, I

Brandon 1:32:25

think part of the problem here is that as is often the case, and things like this, too, I just discovered that, like, not every episode was written or directed by the same person,

Collin 1:32:43

that well, one of the showrunners, I think, actually died in the making of these things as well. So

Brandon 1:32:50

there's like, there's like four different directors.

Collin 1:32:53

Yes. Someone passed away, who was either showrunner or director, someone like that, who was playing a major role? One of them also passed away. But yes, it was also being passed around. And I feel like, I mean, practice

Brandon 1:33:04

is a team, right? Like, that makes sense, right? But you're also

Collin 1:33:07

kind of, I know, studios do this where they go. I don't know which one of you and then they can go okay, you director may be this one. We like what you did with the materials, we're gonna give you more or whatever. Like, they can also be sometimes where they do that, because I know they did that with the Oh, I just said it with the Oh, my brain is really running low on gas.

Brandon 1:33:32

Star Trek, right? Oh, yeah. And then

Collin 1:33:35

they're like, Oh, we really did like what JJ Abrams did, so we're gonna hand it back to him kind of thing.

Brandon 1:33:39

Yeah. So like, it's just weird, or when it's like, in thing, so I don't know how common or uncommon that is, in these situations, but it does just sort of feel like you know, that could be part of the continuity stuff. But like, you know, it's, it's ambitious, to a lot of work, not begrudging, the people that made it or anything, right. And again, I have no horse in this race. Like I don't really care about realtime well that much and I feel like their job should mostly be to make me because I'm unfamiliar with it. Right so just to continue to try to make something interesting to where I do want to keep watching it because like I said, like, I had this I was like, wow, I need to finish it for like gas because my attitude after some of the episodes like watch one tomorrow like I'm not dealing with it's more today because it's like and again, that's kind of the mood the tone of everybody. Again, I understand catastrophic situation. Going to be sad, but like, Give me something man, come on. Give me Give me something. Give me some kind of payoff. Even if it's little right Give me a little win here and there. Help me along. So, yeah, that's kind of it like it's just it's fine. But I do feel like it probably could be better, but like, could also have been a lot worse. So

Collin 1:35:20

you heard it here, folks. Yeah, view it's fine. It could be better could be worse. glowing review?

Brandon 1:35:26

Yeah. It's just kind of okay

Collin 1:35:29

to be angry letters 2123 USA Street.

Brandon 1:35:33

address them Brandon. Bye. I've offended your childhood. Sorry.

Collin 1:35:41

You're welcome. Very good. Well, well, yeah. I like it.

Brandon 1:35:51

Yeah, part two at some undetermined time in the future. If we remember very importantly here. Yeah, if we remember. Well, great, good. Love you guys. Love you. Love

Aaron 1:36:08

you too. Bye. Bye.